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Post by Peter Sorensen on Feb 9, 2016 17:58:56 GMT -6
Hi Greg and arnie I totally agree with your test and your findings,this does not conflict With my Idea, and I emphasise, this is just an Idea.
so When you se a Steel tempering chart ( try to Google it ) then you will se that the color on the chart is exactly the same as the color you can make by reducing a glaze a Clear iron glaze whitout other oxydes, When firing a iron glaze in oxygen atmosphere an then reduce it, if you have hold at different temperature from 1000 C to 1150 C, you can make a lot of different color of the crystal, from black to yellow and a lot of other color including gold and blue and other when you reduce it. If you se the steel tempering chart you will se the same color. So my Idea is that altrough the steel temper is at a temperature rate between 170 to 300 C, then compared to the color in a glaze, the hold temperature is a lot higher in the glaze, from 1000 to 1150 C. In the steel chart you heat the steel or iron in our atmosphere where there is abundant of oxygen. The oposit is in a glaze, where you have a closed glaze, and the Iron is in a oxyde state, then when you begin to reduce, it begin to make the same color as in the steel temper chart, but the temperature scale and color table is oposit to the steel temper chart. The color that corespond to the low temp on the steel chard is the same as the color you get at a high temperature hold in the glaze. I gess that I cant explane this to you, so your can understand it. and this have noting to do, with strike or glazes with other oxydes. This is just an Idea, to explaine the corrolation between Irons color state in oxydation an at the reduced state on iron as a metal and in a Glaze I know that if this should be explaned. then one has to explane how the oxydes get the color by the microscopic particles that have a optic index that express the color as in a prism and that the index is different in the zink silicate than in a colodium Glaze that give a different color back ground than in the crystal but I am just pusseled by the color similarity in Iron oxydes on a peace of iron and in a glaze I hope that there is on on the forum that can follow me But if not. this is for my pennies worth Strike is this not some baseball term ? :-)
I have tryed to find a Steel temper chart to show you but I cant copy it to here But try to google it and se it And Koz dont bang me down :-)
Peter
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Post by mohawkpiper on Feb 9, 2016 21:01:50 GMT -6
Peter, like this? that is one really cool spider by the way. G
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Post by Peter Sorensen on Feb 10, 2016 12:53:21 GMT -6
Hi Greg
Yes this is the different color for iron thise color can vary some, from one steel type to another, and when they are blended with other metal, Vanadium, Molybden, Mangan, and other metal and if there is a high carbon content in the steel. Stainless steel with high concentration of other metal dont show mutch color, that is some of them.
about the spider, I got the idea, when I saw the "Black Widow"film with Teresa Russell and Debra winger. the stone is amatyst and black jet
Peter
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Post by Ferenc Halmos on Feb 10, 2016 14:55:56 GMT -6
I think the 2 things are based completly different basis. The tempering colors of the steel caused by the fine strukture of the oxidised surface. This phaenomena alike to the luster glazes and based on the interference of the reflected light beams. The colour of the glazes ,reduced above 1000 C are real colors and based on the color of the different materials dissolved in the glass (glaze ).
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Post by mohawkpiper on Feb 10, 2016 15:26:43 GMT -6
Kuba, I misread your question. I have struck one single piece at most 4 times.
I also think the two things are completely different. But maybe they are related somehow. I have struck iron at the 1300*F range and gotten an orange, darker from the normal yellow color it gives. and then at the 1500*F range and gotten a brown, and then at the 2000*F range and gotten a white. I am interested now in trying more in the 1650*F-1850*F range and seeing what happens. Maybe in the future I will give it a shot.
G
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Post by Peter Sorensen on Feb 10, 2016 15:27:33 GMT -6
Hi Ferenc
You mean that the iron oxydes disolve to Iron and oxygen atoms in the glaze ?
Peter
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Post by Peter Sorensen on Feb 11, 2016 18:47:33 GMT -6
Hi Ferenc Greg and arnie and all I thank you all for your contribution on this tread. it started with gold stuf and moved to another subject My apology I know that my teori is a longshot Ference you are right in that the iron temper color is a light refractory index thing and that the ironoxydes grov small tubular tubes that refract the light at one wavelenght and these tube grow acordently to the temperature that they were grown in but my teory is that, the same is what happens in a glaze, I dont think that the iron oxyde dissolve in the glaze. the melting point of iron oxydes is at 1539-1565 Celsius. This i my assumption. the flux in the glaze can make it melt lover at an eutenic combitnation but I gess that the iron oxydes dont dissolve in the glaze and it is unaffected by the glaze but when the absens of oxygen happens in a reduction, the iron oxydes lose som oxygen and make the color change and this is different with the iron oxydes that have combined with the crystal that are Zink silicate. Or the refractory index in the zink silicate is so different than the overall glaze that the change in the oxydes come out in other light wavelenght than in the bare glaze. But the different way than the temper color on iron that happen in an oxygen atmosphere where the color change in the glaze under reduction happens the other way in an atmosphere with the oposite of an oxygen atmosphere a CO atmosphere that draw back the oxygen from the iron oxyde. this is the best way that i can explane it. I am maybe totaly wrong,but by discussing it I hope to to becom wiser than before But All this can be said on Titanium The oxydation of titanium is mutch easyer if you have a peace of titanium, you can oxydice it with a battery and a bit of coca cola, to show color that cover the rainbow, so maybe it is not the iron but the titanium that does the trick I do not know just guessing Peter NB look at this www.google.dk/search?q=oxidation+of+titanium&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:da:official&tbm=isch&imgil=EExddm6p2_75bM%253A%253B2aQYcBCSMrHi9M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.titaniumexposed.com%25252Ftitanium-oxide.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=EExddm6p2_75bM%253A%252C2aQYcBCSMrHi9M%252C_&usg=__TEP1UDHdxK52mqfQVEHp7Wc640M%3D&biw=1680&bih=880&ved=0ahUKEwjH7eWW_vDKAhVoGZoKHZagCpoQyjcISQ&ei=him9VseSAuiy6ASWwarQCQ#imgrc=EExddm6p2_75bM%3A
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Post by tileman2 on Feb 11, 2016 22:08:04 GMT -6
Peter: I would go with the titanium before the iron oxide. If you recall, Arnie posted some extensive research on strike firing towards the end of last year. I noticed and commented to Arnie about how much more dramatic the results were when he increased the titanium. That said, I also noticed the changes in iron oxide were also present when titanium increased. Last month I posted a side by side test result using Cadmium in one, and none in the other. Both pieces had the exact same colorants: the difference being titanium. I tested cadmium with most of the common colorants with little effect until I added titanium. "Refractive Index" is the correct term if you are interested in doing some research. It is the scientific measure of how an object reflects light. Zinc certainly has highly refractive properties. At this point in following this topic: I would be looking hard at TiO2: with additional changes to refractive properties caused by the zinc. Tom
Jim: I signed up for a two week throwing course later this spring. Need to learn how at some point. Note: I notice big changes in Piper's pieces that high levels of titanium as well.
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Post by Ferenc Halmos on Feb 12, 2016 5:58:38 GMT -6
Hi Ferenc You mean that the iron oxydes disolve to Iron and oxygen atoms in the glaze ? Peter Hi Peter , I think the iron oxide dissolves in the glass and after some chemical reaction turns to other form as silicates,etc.
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Post by Peter Sorensen on Feb 12, 2016 16:34:36 GMT -6
Hi Tilman 2, Ference First Tilman You may be right I dont know if it is the iron or the Titanium that does the color change but the iron and the titanium in combined give these color and that the Titanium is more active than the iron is maybe right I dont know Pipers intensive test may point to that, In Danish we call it the lys brydnings index but this is just another word for the same thing
Ference You are right in that the crystal is a Zinksilicate but the rest of the glaze (in my opinnion) is just an soup of kvarts zink and other ingredience The zink silicate is a new molecule with its ovn proporty including its own refractory index in my teory the background glaze have one refractory index as the glass it is, and the zink silicate have another index, this can explaine why the color is different in the crystal than in the rest of the glaze. in my teori the concentration of the coloring oxydes is the same in the glaze and in the crystal but it is the light refractory index that give the difference in color and maybe the crystal, do to its density, have another effect during reduction so the reduction is different in the crystal than in the background glaze But I know that there were a lot of knowled people on the old forum that can explaine the right from wrong and I would like them to step up and solve this, if they are amongst us here. I am just geesing. But I know that there are some with better idear than mine. I could not be the only one with a teory of what happen in the glaze We can test the result to dooms day but it would be better to have some knowledge to what happen in the glaze during firing and reduction
Peter
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Post by mohawkpiper on Feb 12, 2016 19:23:24 GMT -6
I like this thread. it is starting to make me wonder.
However I feel that striking has little effect on titanium. Reduction definitely has an effect on titanium. I feel striking works much better with iron, both in oxidation and reduced.
I think often these tests shown have used ilmenite and rutile, both of which have both titanium and iron in them, so you cannot say one is doing the effect and the other is not from using those materials. You have to separate them out from each other and test in a glaze with just iron, and just titanium, to know what is doing what right?
I have struck titanium only glazes in various amounts and had very little to no effect from it apart from weird surface boils or something.
G
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Post by tileman2 on Feb 12, 2016 23:05:47 GMT -6
Good point Greg: yes they would have to be tested separately.Question: in your titanium only glaze: did you notice any difference in the finish? Such as matte, gloss, very high gloss? That alone would suggest that titanium plays a role in refracting light. Like Peter, I know titanium is playing a role somehow- the how I do not know for sure. All of us already know what zinc does: so its back to iron. I did read a couple of articles on iron silicates: changes can begin to occur at 1210F. So there is one more piece of information for this puzzle. Type in "Iron silicate" as a search, and just look at the images that come up. They show a collection of naturally occurring iron silicates that I found very interesting. The colors in those images I have seen in Arnies' plates, Gregs pieces, and a dew other. I found the color range in the naturally occurring samples for iron silicate was very close to what we have seen here. Tom
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Post by ulrike on Feb 13, 2016 7:14:05 GMT -6
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gczop
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by gczop on Feb 13, 2016 10:46:43 GMT -6
Hello Ulrike. Thanks for the clear documentation of willemite's affinity to uptake certain colorants. Best wishes, Gordon
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Post by Peter Sorensen on Feb 15, 2016 14:25:10 GMT -6
Hi Ulrike and all I have being reading the link you send me, and as I see it, it is a test to determing witch crystal that has formed in the 6 glazes, and the amount of oxydes the crystal have included in there matrix But without the glaze formula, and knowledge on how they are burn, I dont get much information out of these test. But I can se that I may be wrong about how the oxydes dissolve in the glaze, as Ference point out. If the metal oxydes are linked in the crystal matrix it has to be dissolved to atom level instead of just polute the crystal( Doped crystal) and of course the willemite crystal it self . - for it to be formed, the zink and the silica has to be dissolved compleatly in the glaze to ion level with free electrons, before the cemical reaction, can happen. I have alwayes thought the glaze, to be a soup of melted ingredience with a non polar karakteristika If the ingredience is dissolved to ion level then it should be possible to send an electric current trugh it, when it is in the melted state. is this possible ? Thank for your making me strait on this. But I gess that this is not the only impossibel teory that you will here from me the discussion is feed to the brain. Peter
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