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Post by mohawkpiper on Aug 24, 2015 0:01:01 GMT -6
Roughly 3 months ago Pam and I ran out of our stock of 3110 so we bought a new bag. The new bag was quite a bit different and our glazes changed across the board. It seems the frit is firing a cone or two lower, making it run and melt more. Rather than firing a little cooler we have been slowly working them back to the way they were 1 by 1, because our 413 frit glazes are unaffected and still need cone 10 firings. One I haven't been able to fix is our favorite black glaze. Neither of us has made a black piece in 3 months. I finally decided to test new batch numbers of the same frit and check this out...  The first one is a new batch bought friday, and the way it used to be before our changes. The middle one is our latest batch of 3110, and the right is a batch from Aardvark down south. Everything else the same. Same materials, same recipe, glazed to the same thickness, and in the same firing (so same schedule, same atmosphere etc). Maybe this is already known to most but I always thought Ferro Frit 3110 was pretty stable from batch to batch. I know other frits aren't always. Goes to show even 3110 can vary quite a bit. Come the morning we are purchasing the rest of the bag the new test frit came from as well as a few others from the same batch. G |
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Kuba
Full Member
SztukKilka in Old Formu
Posts: 111
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Post by Kuba on Aug 24, 2015 7:10:08 GMT -6
I think this is same story with zinc, with silica same with frits, and raw materials we can buy  We all know that manufacturer dose not create them to produces crystal glazes. I have thought about an idea of manufacture frit by myself in factory, on order. Minimum weight is 400kg (880 pounds) but it is possible to order any mix I want. But the question is: What would be the best radio of ingredients in such frit??? Maybe just copy: 644, 3110, 413 frits? Or create something really new? ...but without tests nobody give me guaranty that it would work for crystals  |
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morgan
New Member
Darn...lot of good info on the old forum. Sad that it got unstable. But whadya do?
Posts: 21
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Post by morgan on Aug 24, 2015 8:26:49 GMT -6
Wish I could afford to get a *$&% pot full of materials so that I could go a long time without having to figure out the new batch. Unfortunately I'm one of the majority of potters who is just scraping by...lol. Drives me insane when I get a new batch of... whatever.
Greg... Do you acid bath those pots? I've never even come close to the vivid crystals you, and others, get. Only did one acid bath pot, in muriatic acid. Got some bleaching, copper glaze, but nothing spectacular. Sat for around 24 hours in a full strength solution.
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Post by Koz on Aug 24, 2015 8:34:28 GMT -6
Piper,
Yeah those different batches will throw ya for sure.
Been there.
3110 frit is made in Mexico as a primary ingredient for a glaze used on roofing tiles, and just happens to be a great crystalline glaze frit.
Fusion frit 413 is made for the grinding wheel manufacturing process, and also just happens to be a great crystalline frit.
Even with Fusion frit 644, that was made to replicate Dugusa frit 90208, specifically for crystalline glazes, isn't consistent because of the way they make it.
Fusion produces a limited amount of it every year, and it is made in the same crucibles that what ever previous frit was made. The first crucible full is what they call a "rinse" batch, then they make a few more batches in the same crucible, then mix all those together and call it done.
Isn't that nice? A "rinse" batch.
So on the floor at the Fusion Ceramics it goes like this..... "Oh, yeah Stan, good eye there on all the stuff left in the bottom of the crucible, but jus' filler' up with more of that powdered white stuff over there and it will all mix together real nice like. It'll all be the same color in the end. Who's gonna possibly be able to tell, right? And each one uh them there paper bags is bout' round I'd say 50 pounds each, so you don't gotta weigh em' just make sure you count how many go in and write it down on the back of the stirrin' shovel with a piece of charcoal."
So, in turn, the ENTIRE batch is now just not quite what it could be, and with the sensitivity of crystalline glazes, well, you know. Stan, and the guy he's workin' with on a hot humid Friday afternoon at Fusion, them dudes DO NOT know. Or, I dare say, care.
I guess if we were sintering grinding wheels or glazing roof tiles a little bit of rinse batch frit wouldn't matter.
Gotta buy by the batch, as much as you can, and when you run out, get ready for a surprise.
Koz |
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Post by Arnie Benton on Aug 24, 2015 17:48:42 GMT -6
Just so happens a 50 lb 'barrel' of 413 arrived a few days ago. I will be going through the same testing process - I dreaded the time I would finally run out of a frit. Maybe I'll get some SPECTACULAR results, and not a headache.
Arnie
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Post by tileman2 on Aug 24, 2015 17:56:08 GMT -6
Greg:
Not the first time I have heard complaints about 3110. In round figures; 16% sodium, 3% boron, and 67% SiO2: some potassium and calcium in there as well. I would put excessive amounts of boron high up on the culprit list; relatively strong flux. Sodium can cause discoloration, but I suspect it is the silica with high amounts of FE impurities. As Koz pointed out- shipped from Mexico which does not have high standards for continuity or purity. Perhaps even magnesium impurities in the silica: the middle pot has an iron/magnesium colorant effect in the growth rings. My two cents worth; but according to the stock market today is now worth one cent. That ride is just starting as well. Hopefully Zochem will produce Cerox 506, because Horsehead is no longer making it. The ceramic business makes up less than 5% of the total zinc, frit, and silica market: so we are not high on their priority list. Issley has a raw glaze base in his book; been playing with that-with little success.
Tom
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Post by mohawkpiper on Aug 24, 2015 22:41:27 GMT -6
Hey Morgan, these arent bathed in acid. I havent gone there yet. Been meaning to, just havent. I like to think of the large amounts of materials as an investment. Sure it hurt the wallet. And im not makin a whole lot right now. But in the end i think it will be cheaper. I spent the last 3 months wastin tons of clay and raw materials on testing testing testing and i still had a long way to go. Plus the stuff is cheaper by the pound in larger batches. We bought enough to last us many years to come i hope. 400 kilos is an awful lot though kuba  Tom yea iono what it was. A little bit different for each glaze. I was able to get 3 or 4 of our glazes working back to results similar to the way it was before and it wasnt always the same solution. im not complaining. just dealing with what ive been given and sharing those results We will still use the old frit. i have been testing entirely new glazes with it that i like the results. it will just be like another material. 3110 A and 3110 B or something like that  G |
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Post by adammacmillan on Aug 25, 2015 13:59:42 GMT -6
I've had crazy problems with 3110 too.
It would be great if we could somehow form a raw material or frit cooperative. Everyone here petitions to get a "high accuracy" frit from the vendor. We then combined would MAYBE be a substantial enough order that we could get a special run. We agree to pay 10% more/pound or something, and then it gets reserved for members only.
I know...it's a nice idea in theory.
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Post by tileman2 on Aug 25, 2015 17:32:08 GMT -6
Adam:
I have given thought to that myself. More so, operating a crystalline only wholesale shop. Been trying for months to get the wholesaler in St. Louis to operate a crystalline only section- and stock accordingly. Comes down to the old adage: if you want something done; then do it yourself. So I sorta did; except I am not selling. Somehow the thought of weighing out 1/4, 1, and 5 lb bags just does not appeal to me.
Tom
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Post by jfox on Aug 26, 2015 17:55:06 GMT -6
I got a quote (at least 3 years ago) on a long ton (2200 lbs) of 3110 from Ferro fob LA for $.87 (wish i could muster the $2000)
I'm on the road now left Monday currently in San luis obispo, going pretty good, 5K 2 new customers and a nice hang gliding flight so far
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Post by tileman2 on Aug 26, 2015 18:10:45 GMT -6
Jim:
Keep an eye open for those high end retail shops: they are the ones who like unique and high profit items. Happy sales. I have gotten quotes on ton quantities of silica, zinc, colorants, Nep Sy, TiO2, and a few other main ingredients. Buying it is one thing; selling it is another.
Tom
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Post by Tracey Renner on Aug 26, 2015 20:03:11 GMT -6
Hi Greg,
I am just wondering if you can post the batch # of the 3110 that was giving you cone 8ish results.... As well as the one that is giving you the black results again (cone 10). I can see my frit is running low and I am dreading the process of retooling since I rarely do crystalline firings. But if I can find what you describe as the good batch, I will grab some now and start retooling.
Thanks,
Tracey
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Post by mohawkpiper on Aug 27, 2015 0:05:35 GMT -6
tracey i sent you a pm.
G
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Post by Nikolay on Aug 26, 2016 12:52:42 GMT -6
You can cook yourself a frit. It will take a crucible, burned at 1250C and the following simple composition (per kg batch)
Chalk 83.74 grams (CaCO₃)
Potash 25,61 grams (K₂CO₃)
Sodium bicarbonate 308 grams (NaHCO₃)
Corundum 27,67 grams (Al₂O₃)
Boric acid 34,96 grams (H₃BO₃)
Quartz 520,02 grams (SiO₂)
I do crucible of porcelain, was burned in the cooking temperature inside the cover with kaolin (as you cover the glaze), it makes it easy to extract the contents of the ingot after cooking.
The crucible fill 3/4 - if more overflows during cooking.
Cook well, finely comminuted frit.
If you moisten the insoluble material solution of a soluble, dry and chop will generally ideal-cooking will be accelerated and qualitatively.
After cooking is 1/3 of the crucible, and can top up the charge again to cook in parallel with the firing products.
Then put the ingot in a furnace and heated up to 550C and throw cold water, frit crumbles as the side window at the car, and then a ball mill.
If I would have bought the ingredients for 1 kg (retail the most expensive option) in Russia frit out ~ $ 2 per kg + 0.3 $ crucible.
Thanks to the participants, who share their experience!
Good luck!
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We all know that manufacturer dose not create them to produces crystal glazes. 
