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Post by ianchilders on Aug 1, 2015 21:07:41 GMT -6
Well, my elements finally bought the farm. I figured its time to give a little review of my kiln while i wait for the week to start so i can call someone and order new elements. Plus I really wanted to post on the new forum! I've got over 160 firings over 5 years to cone 10-12 on this kiln with an average firing length of 20 hours. I'm pretty amazed that the standard elements lasted this long. Up until recently it has been pretty smooth sailing. As the elements degraded over the past several firings i started getting erratic temp zones. I'd get cone 8 at the bottom, cone 11 at the middle, and cone 9 at the top. I guess that too be expected though, However, when i set a preheat for bisque the top zone would go way too high up to 500 or so and the lower two would be fine at 200. Not sure where that's coming from, its been happening for a few years, but i rarely bisque in this kiln. I also wish they would update the Kiln KISS software to something a little more modern. It hasn't been updated since 2005 and it looks like it was made in 1995. Other than that, its a great kiln and i highly recommend it to anyone looking into buying one. Should i order the elements from L&L or Euclid's? Also, What do ya think, should i bite the bullet and invest in APMs? They're really expensive for this kiln but they'd probably last forever. Also, here's a pic of my kiln tech looking upset for having him work with me late on a Friday night.  |
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Post by Koz on Aug 1, 2015 21:17:55 GMT -6
Ian,
Glad to see yer still out there.
Go with the APM's.
Koz
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Post by Tim Moran on Aug 1, 2015 22:54:14 GMT -6
Ian, I have three of the L&L 's all with APM elements. Am firing number 302 on the first set as we speak. They are definitely worth it to me for the reliability and long term use. I fire about every 40 hours year round on all three.
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Post by mohawkpiper on Aug 2, 2015 0:56:41 GMT -6
I dont have an L&L but APMs all the way!
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Post by adammacmillan on Aug 3, 2015 19:54:54 GMT -6
I think I have the first JH style built that was 36" tall. Got it with APM's and coated it with ITC right away. On about 200 cone 11-12 fires and still no change in firing time.
Put APM's in my L&L 18*28, and it too is still going strong. A regular set from Euclid's in that kiln would last about 40 fires max.
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Post by winner on Aug 17, 2015 9:30:01 GMT -6
Just got my 1st L&L kiln its programing not the same as Bartlet Controler for Cress.
Can use some help programing it.
Might be the "enter Prog" bitten is not working.
I have no point of reference to figure out what is going on.
Mark 949-922-3900 art.mpw@gmail.com_
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Post by mariewright on Sept 5, 2015 3:01:04 GMT -6
Hey Ian,
Thanks for the review - I am planning to buy an L&L JH kiln in the next few months, and it is good to see it is working so well for you. I have been on the fence as to whether I should spring for the APMs, and after reading all of the comments, I think I'll give them a try.
I know the KISS software is old school, but it seems like the best thing out there - it keeps track of everything you need. I have not used it yet, but I will soon.
On another note, go with Euclids for your next set of elements. They are easy to work with, and their price is much better than Paragon. I suspect they can beat L&L's prices too.
Cheers,
Marie
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Post by Tracey Renner on Sept 5, 2015 18:19:05 GMT -6
Hi Marie, You probably saw the debate on this just before the old forum closed. I have two L&L JD 230 kilns that I found on Craigslist. One was brand new and literally in the shrink wrap. It was a lemon, the board failed the test fire, but it was so cheap on Craigslist ($600) that I was okay fixing it ($550) (it was out of warranty and I know the woman who sold it to me had no idea that the board was defective). The other was a very used second hand kiln. I immediately replaced the elements which were shot, the relays followed after that. Again, the kiln was cheap, I expected to make repairs.
I know the JH is a much better kiln, but will probably switch to a Skutt if I get more serious because I do not like having 3 thermocouples and 3 relay switches on on the L&L. That's three thermocouples that can fail and 3 relays that can fail. I do not find that my thermocouples stand up well. I basically have had to turn my lag off because the kiln fires unevenly. The top is cooler and gets one base glaze, and the bottom is hotter and gets another.
I think both L&L and Skutt make good kilns, but that's where I see a difference. I'd be interested to know what others think of how evenly the kilns fire, thermocouples, and relays.
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Post by Koz on Sept 7, 2015 8:48:54 GMT -6
Tracey,
I have eight Skutt kilns, 6 1227's and 2 1027's, that are now 13 years old, and although they are showing some wear, they all still get the job done.
They are all 3 inch brick with APM elements. Each on can be fitted with an S-type thermocouple, but I only have two that I use for crystalline, so the other 6 have a K type. You mentioned your thermocouples don't stand up well. Are you using S-types? If you don't break them, they pretty much last forever.
The 1227's have mercury relays, and I haven't ever had to replace one of them. There is another type of relay in the Skutt called a PILOT relay, buried really deep and is hard to get to. I've had to replace just a few of those in the 13 years I've had them. Solid State relays (the kind that don't click on and off) would be awesome. I don't know if L&L kilns have those. I know custom control panels can be built for kilns with solid state relays, but I haven't gone there. Terry Fallon built a couple for Bill Campbell, and they work real well for him, in his L&L kilns.
For a crystalline firing I put one large self supporting kiln on the bottom shelf, and fire to that, with just one thermocouple per kiln. It works for me, fires evenly,and I guess I haven't had a need for a three zone kiln. I try to keep things simple in general.
As far as comparing a Skutt to an L&L, here is what I think. Each kiln is certainly a capable work horse, just like a Kawasaki motocross bike can win the race like a Yamaha, Suzuki or Honda, when either one is ridden to it's full potential. Sometimes things like this come down to brand name loyalty.
The L&L ads always stress how easy it is to fix their kilns, and emphasize that anyone can replace an element, attributing some of that convenience to the ceramic element holders. That's all fine and dandy, but I don't see why that would make it any easier. An element is just a coil, you slip it into the groove, and connect the ends to the power source, just like a Skutt. Personally, I think if you can't fix your own kiln, at LEAST be able to change an element, you really need to just learn how to use a screwdriver and a half inch wrench, and not count on an electrician.
If you own a dairy farm, you need to be able to give a cow a shot or deliver a calf without having to call a vet every time some little thing happens.
L&L touts that you don't have to "pin" the elements in place. You don't have to do that in a Skutt either, if the element is properly stretched to fit and laid in place without any twists in it. If an element does pop out of the groove, THEN you can pin it here or there, which you can't do in an L&L BECAUSE of the element holder.
The pictures in L&L ads they show of kilns with elements hanging out of the grooves that look more unruly than Einstein's eyebrows are obviously in a school somewhere. Student's and amateurs (and some employees) just don't care enough to be more careful when loading and unloading shelves, and the brick chips and there is where the problems start.
A little care goes a long way to keep your kiln lookin' and runnin' good. I'm sure there are L&L kilns out there with broken element holders.
Also with no ceramic element holders in a Skutt, there is less thermal mass to bring up to temperature. It's not a lot, but it's something.
When we bought our new kilns we bought all 8 at once. I did compare the differences, and chose the Skutt.
I could go on and on, but right now I have to go turn one kiln off and load another, right after I replace an element that burned out in the last firing. The kiln still reached temperature with the burned out element, and the load was fine going to cone 5.
That's what I got on that.
Off to the dungeon I go to feed the dragons. Dragons is sooooooo stupid.
Koz
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Post by Tracey Renner on Sept 7, 2015 12:03:36 GMT -6
The JD 230 that I have is a different beast than the one Marie is looking at. The JH is a racehorse. I can pull my kiln apart and program it with ease, but I see issues. And I hear others have had thermocouple issues with the L&L kilns. And I have been told by L&L support to keep extra relays on hand because they tend to go. I'm going to have to upgrade in a couple of years or this kiln will drive me crazy with its uneven firing. It's not fun having to decide what's going on the bottom shelf and what going on the top shelf - or is it? Maybe you are just having less fun than me.
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Post by Koz on Sept 7, 2015 12:28:28 GMT -6
O.K. gang I got more.
This may be a bit of a rant, but it's just about kilns. Grab yourself a cold one and read on if you wish.
It's good and hot and humid here in Upstate N.Y. today, and it certainly isn't any cooler in the Dragon Dungeon. I ran 3 bisk kilns over night, 2 cone 5 glaze kilns this morning, and I don't even want to LOOK at the thermometer in there....I'm sure it's working and has a different read on it that the one in the workshop.
I just downed a pint of water with lunch, and took a look through one of the comic books on the lunch table. This one comic book titled "Pottery Making Illustrated", has plenty of kiln ads in it.
I can really see how it must be difficult for a beginner to pick out a kiln. Because ALL the kilns are JUST AWESOME and amazing inventions propelling mankind into the blindingly bright future of all things made out of mud. I just always though they were essentially big powerful toaster ovens that you can make turn on at 2 in the morning if you want.
One ad for a Paragon kiln features a senior in some university who just SWEARS by her little Paragon kiln, because it allows her to "down fire" (then they explain this a slow cooling.....gee thanks for that)
and also allows her to, believe it or not, AT THE TOUCH OF A BUTTON, program the kiln to fire very slowly for her "larger" bisk pieces.
Paragon then goes on to explain that she is part of a new world of potters who are on the "inside track" of modern digital technology. I guess that statement eliminates me, cuz I sure as heck ain't on the "inside track" of modern digital technology. The Mohawk Piper is, he can do things on a computer that amaze me.
All I know how to do is program a kiln to heat up at a certain rate to a certain temperature, have it hold there or not, then cool down at a certain rate if I want. Heck even my dad got use to that, and he just got his first cell phone.
Paragon then states that they will LEAD in this investigation of a very slow, controlled cooling of the modern kiln.
OH REALLY? Investigation? What's to investigate? Gosh way to go Paragon, had I known that 13 years ago when my kilns were new I would have sent them back, called Skutt and told them that they must be in the back of the line along with L&L.
And isn't it Bartlett Instruments and Orton that make the real brains of what is otherwise just a very powerful toaster oven? I say the folks developing that technology are the leaders. And even then that's not the most incredible thing in computers, realy, realy close though..... Heck Skutt has an app that lets your kiln send you a text message when it's done firing.
Yep, a TEXTING dragon. Gotta be tough to do with such sharp claws.
Then there is the reality factor, and this goes for a lot of things, especially when it comes to advertisements.
For example.... I see pug mill ads in the comic books where there is a WAAAY cooler than most folks bunch of students, sitting on the floor (cuz that's what the cool ceramics students do, sit on the floor) by the pug mill which is essentially SPOTLESS, with perfectly stacked pugs just beckoning to be used in their amazing creative efforts that they pour their heart and soul into. That is after they are done pinning elements in the kiln grooves because they just CAN'T seem to control how hard the shelves bang against the side of the kiln.
The reality is this.....pug mills are about as clean as pigs rollin' around in Tenessee mud. They puke slop out the top of the hopper, they fart, they always need to be fed, and are just a mess in general.
Go ahead and mix some dry scraps with some water or slip from the slop bucket when it's just about full but not quite. It's kind of like trying to eat a whole package of Oreo cookies followed up by a dozen raw eggs quaffed from a pitcher in under two minutes. Only a pro could keep that down.
We call our pug mill "The Bull". The bull has barf all over it most days. Once in a while I have the girls in the shop turn their head while my son strips it down and gives it a sponge bath. It's the only time the bull is quiet and bashful.
And the same thing goes for kilns. They are shiny and nice and new, then they get old and grey, and maybe a little less inspiring to look at, and that's maybe why so many folks get into pottery as a hobby then give it up. It's messy, hot, frustrating, and things don't work out on the way up the ladder right from learning to throw to screwing up a glaze recipe and not knowing it until two days later, then the DREADED experience of actually having to FIX it. I should have quit YEARS ago.
Yeah I'm definitely ranting a bit now. Feels great. Did I mention it's frickin' hot today?
And so on the back cover of the comic book is the L&L ad with the "typical kiln" pictures that look like they have been in the back lot taking 12 guage buckshot since last summer.
The quote in the PERFECTLY CLEAN L&L kiln says this....."Stop worrying about loading your kiln! Load with confidence."
I guess I'll have to try that, even though I don't have an L&L. If I could just learn to trust myself and not worry abut loading my kilns and do so with confidence, I'm sure I would sleep better at night.
I'll work on that. I just have to learn to forgive myself, and trust that my body knows what to do, and I'm sure I will slowly develop the confidence needed to continue loading kilns and finally get something done around here.
I can't believe I've been worrying about loading kilns for 21 years now, when it just isn't necessary anymore. It's been such a stumbling block.
I'm gonna go drink some more water, dunk my head in the slip bucket and load another kiln.
I can DO THIS.
Koz
P.S.
Tracey, I am definitely having MORE fun that you are. I mean after all I have a new confidence and reason to stop worrying about loading kilns thanks to the L&L ad, and I'm laboring on Labor Day. The dungeon is about a jillion degrees, and I'm covered in bull barf and feathers.
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Post by wmcampbell on Sept 7, 2015 13:50:43 GMT -6
Have many of the potters on this site used ITC to coat their elements?
If they have, what kind of results have you had?
Bill Campbell
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Post by adammacmillan on Sept 7, 2015 19:27:56 GMT -6
Hi Bill,
I have - I'm a big fan of the ITC coatings, but I've definitely seen more quantifiable results with the brick coatings. I'm not 100% sold on the element coating.
With the element coating, a key thing is to coat per recommendation. They recommend firing the elements once to build an oxide layer. I put the elements coiled in a high alumina bowl in a bisque fire to get them to build a little oxide layer, then coat, then hang dry. If the coating is too thick, they shed and cause problems. Once dry, install in the kiln and fire away.
I only use this on the standard Euclid elements I have in my homemade fallonator/macmillanator. I was too gun shy to try on APM's, but I don't know if those could be any better.
Anyways, the result seems to be longer element life and resistance to any arcing under reduction, but I don't have solid data. I haven't really been bisque firing between reduction runs and haven't had any issues. I don't see any change to firing time.
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Post by Koz on Sept 7, 2015 19:45:30 GMT -6
Why are so many of you STILL copying my avatar picture?
Marie, Bill, Tim, and "winner", go come up with your own original picture. Or are you all just too busy pinning your elements back in the grooves?
Get on yer' bike an' ride!
Koz
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Post by Tracey Renner on Sept 9, 2015 10:53:10 GMT -6
Koz, I cannot even imagine doing what you do in that heat. No Way. You are reminding me of those days in Houston when it was summer, 100 degrees, and I had to mix clay and put it through the pug mill (no $$$ for clay). I am pretty sure that exercise pushed me away from clay. I'm not sure how you do that.
I'll go put my latest test glaze on the bottom, middle, and top shelf, and appreciate the fact I'm not in Houston and can tool around in my garage.
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